#5 Here's The Kicker - Football, Our First Interview, And Women In Dentistry

Women did not earn the right to vote until 1920. Let that sink in and listen to Dr. Rusty and Dr. Mike discuss a recent speech given by Harrison Butker AND interview their first podcast guest!!!! Dr. Liu talks about her experiences being a woman in a male-dominated field and a little bit about her educational background. So, if you like football, but also care about women's rights, this episode is for you.

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Ashley 00:00:02Welcome to DM a dentist, your friendly neighborhood podcast, where Doctor Rusty and Doctor Mike are here to make dental care approachable for everyone because everyone deserves a healthy smile without the fear.

Dr. Mike 00:00:24Well, well, welcome back.

Dr. Rusty 00:00:26Welcome to another episode of DM a dentist.

Dr. Mike 00:00:28I'm Mike. I'm Rusty, and we're here to chit chat about teeth.

Dr. Rusty 00:00:32We are sorta, sorta. Today is definitely about teeth. It's always about teeth. But on today's segment of what? The filling.

Dr. Mike 00:00:43Oh, we almost slipped up there.

Dr. Rusty 00:00:44I really wanted to say the other one today because today's is, you know, a little weird.

Dr. Mike 00:00:50Yeah, we had a. To say the least, there was a recent commencement speech that we had.

Dr. Rusty 00:00:55Yeah. So I'm sure if you've seen it, if you've watched social media at all, this guy's been getting ripped apart. Harrison. But Kerr, he's the Kansas City chiefs kicker, if you don't know. Regardless, who cares what he does, really? But he gave a commencement speech at, like, a catholic school. Right. And, you know, he's basically getting ripped apart on social media, I think, for good reason, based upon what he said.

Dr. Mike 00:01:21Yeah, let's read in that.

Dr. Rusty 00:01:23Yeah. Just for any of you who haven't heard, Mike, please, please read. Please read what he said.

Dr. Mike 00:01:27This is a direct quote, I think it is. You, the women who have had the most diabolical lies told to you. How many of you are sitting here now about to cross this stage and thinking about all the promotions and titles you're going to get in your career? Some of you may go on to lead successful careers in the world, but I would venture to guess that the majority of you are most excited about your marriage and the children you will bring into this world. Now, for context, this was said at a commencement speech.

Dr. Rusty 00:01:58A commencement speech.

Dr. Mike 00:01:59So women and men are graduating because they chose to pursue education in a career. So it's just. It's odd content.

Dr. Rusty 00:02:09I hate it.

Dr. Mike 00:02:09I hate it.

Dr. Rusty 00:02:10The most diabolical lie at their graduation is that they can get promotions and titles in their career. I mean, that's what they've just spent years working for.

Dr. Mike 00:02:18Right? And we're saying that basically being a mother and having children, basically we're going back to gender roles, is what it feels like, whether he meant it or not. That's just not it. That's not.

Dr. Rusty 00:02:28It seems like you meant it. But anyways, as we said, it's not directly tooth related, but we felt it really important to talk about and highlight. Women in dentistry are becoming more and more common, thankfully. But dentistry has been predominantly a male dominated field for majority of history. Right, Mike?

Dr. Mike 00:02:46Yeah, it has. I mean, even so, looking at this, this lady named Lucy Hobbs Taylor was the first woman to get a dental degree in the US in what year, Rusty?

Dr. Rusty 00:02:571866.

Dr. Mike 00:02:59So, like, it feels like a long time ago, but it's not if you think about generations. 1866. Like, my grandmother, great grandmother, were born in the early nineties. Like, we're not that far removed.

Dr. Rusty 00:03:09Right, right.

Dr. Mike 00:03:10So, yeah. And then there's a couple more we want to highlight.

Dr. Rusty 00:03:12Yeah. Sarah Kraut was the first us navy dentist.

Dr. Mike 00:03:16What year was that?

Dr. Rusty 00:03:171944.

Dr. Mike 00:03:19So that is relatively recent. I mean, some of our parents were born.

Dr. Rusty 00:03:22Yeah, World War two.

Dr. Mike 00:03:24Yeah, that's not that long ago for sure. And then this is even a bit more alarming.

Dr. Rusty 00:03:29So we both practice in Oregon, so we wanted to talk about something specific to Oregon. So the first female oral surgeon in the state of Oregon, Mike, when was that?

Dr. Mike 00:03:39In the 1990s. Yeah, 1990s.

Dr. Rusty 00:03:42What was her name?

Dr. Mike 00:03:44Stacy Geisler, I believe.

Dr. Rusty 00:03:46I hope that's how you say it, Doctor Stacy.

Dr. Mike 00:03:47And when she became an omfs, 1% of omfs. So oral maxillofacial surgeons were women, 1% in the nineties. Today, still under 10%. 7% of oral maxillofacial surgeons are women.

Dr. Rusty 00:04:05And these are all, like, statistics that we pulled just from the ADA website based on, like, you know, reporting statistics of dentists throughout the country. Um, some other things that we found. In 2023, the percentage of female dentists in the US, across the whole us, not just Oregon, was 37.7%.

Dr. Mike 00:04:26Yeah.

Dr. Rusty 00:04:26So getting better, especially compared to what it was, you know, just a couple decades ago, even. Mike, what was it in 2001?

Dr. Mike 00:04:322001, it was 16.1%. So we've doubled.

Dr. Rusty 00:04:36Yeah.

Dr. Mike 00:04:36But we're still. We've got a long way to come. Although, good news. My graduating class, we had a little bit over 50% were women.

Dr. Rusty 00:04:44Yeah.

Dr. Mike 00:04:45Which is great.

Dr. Rusty 00:04:45Yeah. I think mine was right at. Or maybe slightly over two. I can't remember exactly, because when you.

Dr. Mike 00:04:49Look back, so when you, like, go to dental school or whatnot, you look in the hallways, there's photographs of all the graduating classes. When you look at the beginning, the majority of the time it's men, mostly white men. But it's just men. Men. And finally, we're coming to this turn. So it feels like this speech just didn't hit. I mean, that is not it.

Dr. Rusty 00:05:10No.

Dr. Mike 00:05:10Nope.

Dr. Rusty 00:05:12And regardless of what intentions he had, even if you're someone who agrees with what he says and you're trying to defend him, it's not the right time to replace for that as they're getting their degree. And they literally have just spent years. I mean, we both went to years of school. We know what it's like from at least that perspective, just studying alone, not being a woman, obviously. But you know, what a ridiculous thing.

Dr. Mike 00:05:37For him to say devalues the work.

Dr. Rusty 00:05:39Yeah.

Dr. Mike 00:05:40No, there are people that want to be mothers, and that's okay. And if that's something you value, I support that. But if you're gonna. This speech was performed at an event where women are graduating to become something other than a mother. Maybe they still want to be a mother, but at this moment in time, they are being rewarded for this degree they've earned. Like, yeah, it bothers me a lot.

Dr. Rusty 00:06:04Yeah. Let alone what he said. The timing alone was also terrible.

Dr. Mike 00:06:08So, basically, for context, rusty and I were walking around this conference with three other women who are our co residents, who are also dentists. Right. So we're walking from vendor to vendor.

Dr. Rusty 00:06:18Yep. So we're walking around vendor to vendor, you know, introducing ourselves to the sales rep, doing all the things, and, you know, as the female dentists, the co residents that are females, we're introducing to themselves. They were asked by multiple male vendors, oh, are you an assistant or a hygienist?

Dr. Mike 00:06:38And that was the question. It wasn't. And what's mind blowing is we all had name tags, and it said dentist.

Dr. Rusty 00:06:46On the name tag and doctor so and so. Like, literally their name. Yeah.

Dr. Mike 00:06:50So you're like. No one approached me and asked me what I was. No, they just assumed. They assumed that the women we were with worked for. For us, which is. It's crazy that this is still happening.

Dr. Rusty 00:07:03So even though things are getting better in dentistry, specifically, with a more even ratio, it's still a male dominated field, and it's still a bias and a stigma against females in dentistry that some people have. And this guy, in his speech, is just biased against women in general, I feel.

Dr. Mike 00:07:20Yeah, it feels very biased, and it feels awful, in my opinion. And I don't wanna go any further because.

Dr. Rusty 00:07:27Exactly. And after all, we're just two guys, and we felt it really important to let you all hear from someone who has a much better perspective on this issue. And one of our close friends agreed to be on the podcast as our first guest. We're super excited.

Dr. Mike 00:07:43Yeah. And she's great and funny. She went to Washington University in St. Louis, which is in the same state as what's his face.

Dr. Rusty 00:07:52Yeah. Missouri.

Dr. Mike 00:07:53The man who shall not be named yeah, she majored in biochemistry, which is awesome. And she had a minor in american culture studies.

Dr. Rusty 00:08:00Yep, yep. So that was her undergrad, and then she did dental school at OHSU here in Portland, Oregon. So Oregon Health Sciences University, graduated in 2021, and then she did residency with us at the Portland, Va. Her name is Doctor Victoria Liu, and she loves Meg thee. Stallion relevancy.

Dr. Mike 00:08:20But, yeah, we're excited to have her on the show. So, yeah, she'll be our first interview, so welcome, Doctor Victoria Liu.

Dr. Rusty 00:08:27All right. Doctor Victoria Liu, welcome to the show. We're so happy to have you. Hello.

Dr. Liu 00:08:32I'm excited to be here. Friend of the pod.

Dr. Rusty 00:08:35Thanks again for being here. Really appreciate you. I know Mike is out of town this weekend, but I can definitely speak for him on this one. Him and I are both honored to have you here as our first guest on the show.

Dr. Liu 00:08:45I know. I'm excited, really.

Dr. Rusty 00:08:46Thanks. Thanks for being here. Appreciate you.

Dr. Liu 00:08:48Yeah, of course.

Dr. Rusty 00:08:49So, you know, we gave you a little brief intro. So, as you know, Victoria went to dental school. So why did you want to be a dentist or what inspired you to become a dentist, Victoria?

Dr. Liu 00:08:59So I went to undergrad thinking that I was going to go to medical school, and while I was there, my sister was actually in dental school. So I told her a lot about my struggles with the pros and cons of medical school, and as she kept telling me more and more about dentistry, I found it more appealing. So then I decided to just go for it. I didn't take a gap year. I just graduated and went straight into dental school at OHSU.

Dr. Rusty 00:09:28Perfect. Yeah, that's exactly what I did. I went to undergrad. No gap year. Just went through. It's nice to kind of get done sooner rather than later, especially with the many years it takes to become a dentist and all the hard work and dedication. It's good to get young. Done as young as you can.

Dr. Liu 00:09:41Definitely.

Dr. Rusty 00:09:42That's what I did, too, so it's nice. Why did you choose to go to undergrad in St. Louis?

Dr. Liu 00:09:47So originally, I grew up in the Bay area, California, and I had grown up in the same town my whole life, and I was just sort of itching to get out. And Washoe was a really good midsize school. It was smaller than, you know, University of California, big state school. So I felt like it was a really good opportunity for me to, you know, move away from home, explore myself, and then also most of the people who were there were also from out of state. So I felt like I got to meet a wide range of people from, you know, all different parts of the US. So it was really great school.

Dr. Rusty 00:10:27Nice. Nice. It's fun. I know it's a fun thing. I mean, I moved across the country for dental school, and it's fun to, like, live in a different part of the country. I mean, it's still all the US, but it's still fun to explore, like, a little bit of a different culture or a different group of people, kind of, and just like, a little bit of, I don't know, different, you know, southern culture or different groups and different part of the country, different scenery, things like that. Like, it's so fun. And the Midwest, like, kind of St. Louis and stuff, is pretty central to a lot of stuff. Did you go check out any of the, like, surrounding area while you were there? Much.

Dr. Liu 00:10:53Mostly. Quite a few trips to Chicago, but also drove to Iowa City, which I never would have gone to, honestly, otherwise. Iowa City never made it out to Kansas City, but I also made it out to Nashville. So it was just like a cool road tripping experience. And, you know, getting to honestly think about life outside of, like, California and Texas.

Dr. Rusty 00:11:20It's very isolating to be from California, for sure. For sure. And then you moved to Oregon for dental school.

Dr. Liu 00:11:26Yes. Yeah. So I chose Ohsu because I wanted to be closer to my family a little bit, at least be in the same time zone, the West coast.

Dr. Rusty 00:11:37Right?

Dr. Liu 00:11:37Yeah. But honestly, I feel like Portland's a great sized city and very walkable, so I'm glad I decided to come out here.

Dr. Rusty 00:11:46Nice. Yeah, Portland is beautiful.

Dr. Liu 00:11:48Clearly, I'm still here, so I'm having a good time.

Dr. Rusty 00:11:50Couple years after residency, definitely. Was your class, like, pretty, because I know Mike and I's classes were pretty close to 50 50, like, male female split. What was your class?

Dr. Liu 00:11:59It was very similar. Yeah, 50 50, I would say, at that point.

Dr. Rusty 00:12:03Nice. Yeah. And we talked earlier about a lot of stats Mike and I did about different. Just the increase of women in dentistry, which has been a huge upward trend, which is awesome. And I think it's becoming more and more popular in predominantly, what has been a male dominated field, is definitely becoming more and more of an even split, which is cool. So what's your take on that? That.

Dr. Liu 00:12:25Well, I think, you know, for a lot of reasons, it's great. I think women are just being, you know, are more prominent in all kinds of, you know, arenas, like, you know, sports, with the WNBA and March madness being popular this year. You know, I know more and more of my own female friends from Wash U. Who are now in medical school specializing in, you know, surgery, anesthesiology. So I think women are just, you know, it's less common for there to only be, you know, male dominated industries, but also specifically for general dentistry, because I'm a general dentist, I would say, you know, for the same reasons dentistry could be appealing to anybody. I think it's especially appealing for women who are wanting, you know, to find a little bit of that work life balance if they're planning on having a family. You can be as involved, you know, dentistry can be, you know, as involved as, as you want to be. You can still own while having children. You know, if you manage your time really well, you can choose to work one to two days a week. You know, I think that there's a lot of freedom in that and how you want your career to go. And I think, you know, the longer you spend in the industry, the more you find, you know, you thought that maybe doing XYZ things weren't possible, you know, wanting to balance other stuff, like as a woman, you know, out in your career. But I think the longer that I've been out of dentistry and meeting women who are in the field, I've realized that there's a lot of different paths that you can take, and they're all very much possible.

Dr. Rusty 00:14:08True. Yeah, that's. That's great. That's a great point. And, you know, there are definitely some badass women in dentistry and healthcare, medicine, and really every field now, which is awesome to see. And, I mean, it's just so cool to see. I mean, there's awesome clinical dentist owner Dennis, like you said, leadership and different, you know, academies and groups and, you know, like the group associations, like the Oda, Ada, there's a lot of female leadership, which is really awesome to see as well. So, you know, it's cool. And, you know, I know firsthand you're an awesome dentist. You know, I worked with you, worked with you during residency at the VA, and she's amazing. I think you're a great dentist, too. Thank you. Thank you. But, you know, I know that you firsthand are awesome, but has there been anything that's been particularly hard for you to overcome on kind of your path to dentistry or any particular obstacles or challenge that you feel like you faced?

Dr. Liu 00:15:01Yeah, I mean, I feel like as somebody with my background, the way that I was raised, you know, it was just me and my older sister and my family very much emphasized the importance of education for us. And, you know, pursuing education, higher education, was something that was in my life only encouraged. And it was never something where I was even told that I might have to choose one day. I think that as I meet more and more females in the field and find older women who've been practicing for a while and, you know, they are serving as my mentors, it, you know, is, it's really easy to see that there are small obstacles, but anything that you want to do, it's very much possible. But I would say that, you know, all of this has been a recent, somewhat recent change. And, you know, everything change always, you know, takes time. I've noticed that the faculty at our dental school tend to be older dentists who they have, you know, practiced for decades. They've sold their practice, and they just come to volunteer at the dental school almost for fun. And there were a lot of comments about, you know, my female classmates, just like, small jokes, just like, oh, like, you know, my friend is asking this clinical faculty a lot of questions, and then the faculty looks at somebody else and they're like, oh, well, you know, she's slow, and she just needs a little bit of, like, help, you know, how women are, things like that.

Dr. Rusty 00:16:46Right? Make some offhanded comments.

Dr. Liu 00:16:48Yeah. So there's definitely, like, the offhand comment. There's definitely, like the whole, I would say, if anything, there's more of an expectation almost that you will dial down your career if you have. Decide to have children or if there is an expectation to have children. And, you know, I think a lot of women, not just in dentistry, but just in general in our generation, are kind of, like, constantly battling with that idea, like, oh, do I need to, you know, how much of having a family is, you know, related to my identity as a woman. So I feel like there are obstacles. There have definitely been times where, you know, patients will make comments about female providers. There's definitely times when networking, talking to somebody, there's an assumption that you're running this yourself. So who else is helping you with all of this? It's, I think, kind of doubting you.

Dr. Rusty 00:17:52A little bit in some ways.

Dr. Liu 00:17:54And I think for men, there's never a thought about, oh, I don't think people ask you, like, do you plan to have a family? And there's concern about your wanting to have a family with your career where that is something that women are faced with all the time, for sure.

Dr. Rusty 00:18:14Definitely different.

Dr. Liu 00:18:15So I would say, yes, there are obstacles. I think it's still very much possible to combat the obstacles and face them. But a lot of it is very subtle things that you notice and pay attention to constantly. But it very much, it's not in your face or it's very different. Maybe me being in dental school now compared to somebody who, one of these females who was the first female in the dental class for the first time.

Dr. Rusty 00:18:45Right, right. I mean, it definitely has came a long way, which is awesome to see, but there are definitely, I feel like particularly people of older generations that have some more biases and things on that because things were different and times were different, the world is changing, and it's awesome to see this positive shift. And, you know, I think that's why I think, you know, Harrison Butker, the chief's kicker's comments come off as so drastic and weird because he's so young. I think part of it, too. And so for someone to say that, especially, you know, at a graduation, a commencement ceremony, where, you know, the biggest lies you as a woman have been told is that you can have promotions and titles and things in your career, which it's just weird thing to say. So what are your thoughts on his comments and, you know, some of his speech of what he said?

Dr. Liu 00:19:32Yeah, I mean, I thought that overall, the quote was pretty reductive. It kind of seemed like, you know, the way that, you know, he was talking, it was almost like there was no way to win. Like, let's say you did decide, you know, you, you are graduating, you're excited to work, and you do end up meeting somebody and, you know, having a family and possibly not working anymore, then, you know, then whatever he said that all of that is very positive, you know, and that's still a good way to have a well rounded life if that's what you want out of your life. But the way that he was talking just made that seem like, well, that's what I expect you to do. And in that way, you know, you having a successful family, that's not, you know, a win for me at all. And if you decide to have a career, you know, you will, you know, be passed up for promotions or you will earn less than men. And, you know, all of this is true. I mean, these are all things that women are very much aware of.

Dr. Rusty 00:20:34Right, right.

Dr. Liu 00:20:36So it was just a really odd comment to point out that, you know, there are, you know, more and more people in America overall are pursuing higher education. And yes, you know, a large percentage of those people are, you know, women. So it was very strange for him to bring it up, I think, and also not celebrate any of that in a positive way. It just felt like from the way that he was talking, no matter what women decided to do, there was no way to really, like, succeed or, like, win in his eyes. And I think that that is something that, you know, women in general, again, face in terms of working career, deciding to have a family, it feels like, you know, trying to have it all. You're not really winning, not having a career and possibly being a stay at home mom, you're not winning or not having a family at all and focusing on your career. It just feels like there are a lot of expectations that are placed on us. And it is a constant feeling of just basically, like, what would I want out of my life, and how do I manage that against what I feel society wants of me?

Dr. Rusty 00:21:59Well, and I think that's the most important point, is what you want out of your life as an individual human being, as a woman, as a dentist, as whatever it is you're doing as a career. It's all about what you want. You know, it's not about what society's expectations are on you or what some random person at a college speech thinks or whatever. It really doesn't matter. At the end of the day, what's most important is what you do with your life and that you're happy and fulfilled and whether that's being a mom, whether that's being a dentist, whether that's owning a practice, whether that's whatever you're going to be capable of doing anything you set your mind to. And obviously, you know that. So, you know, I'm just awesome. It's awesome to know you, and I'm happy to be your friend. So, you know, well, it was an.

Dr. Liu 00:22:43Honor to be on the podcast. Happy to do it again anytime.

Dr. Rusty 00:22:46Right on. Well, thank you, Victoria. We love your insight, and we'll definitely have you back.

Dr. Liu 00:22:50Awesome. Great.

Dr. Rusty 00:22:51Thank you. Thanks for listening, y'all.

Dr. Liu 00:22:54Bye bye.

Ashley 00:22:57Thank you for listening to today's episode of DM a dentist, brought to you by dose of dental. And thank you for your interest in improving your oral health. If you'd like your questions answered by doctor Rusty and doctor Mike, visit [email protected] or dm us on Instagram at yourdailydoseofdental.